How would you have played this?

[HarryCaray]

6max turbo SNG
I don't have any stats or prior history on any of these players but it seemed player 2 was pretty aggressive. I am player 3.

My initial thought during the hand is that I should have 3-bet PF or shoved the flop, but now that I know what he had he wouldn't have gone anywhere. So I guess I should have folded the turn? I was pretty confident I was beat at this point but obviously I still had outs. Should I have flatted the turn and check/folded the river when my draw missed, leaving me with short chips? Or was I just destined to lose this hand? :think2:

 

[HarryCaray]

Table Information

Seat1:	Player 1	($2,835)
Seat2:	Player 2	($1,755)	Dealer
Seat3:	Player 3	($1,530)	Small Blind
Seat4:	Player 4	($1,495)	Big Blind
Seat6:	Player 6	($1,385)

Dealt to Player 3

Preflop (Pot:45)

Player 6

FOLD

Player 1

FOLD

Player 2

RAISE

$90

Player 3

CALL

$75

Player 4

CALL

$60

Flop (Pot: $270)

Player 3

CHECK

Player 4

CHECK

Player 2

BET

$180

Player 3

CALL

$180

Player 4

FOLD

Turn (Pot: $630.00)

Player 3

CHECK

Player 2

BET

$630

Player 3

ALL-IN

$1,260

Player 2

CALL

$630

River (Pot: $3,150)

Showdown:

Player 2 SHOWS

Player 3 SHOWS

Player 1	wins the side pot : $0
Player 1	wins the main pot : $3,150

 

[Porcupine]

My thoughts:
(understanding with him holding AK, he is going anywhere, but he usually won't be that strong)

With his open raise from the button, I probably would have 3 bet pf instead of calling out of position with AT.

After the flop, since he has been so aggressive I'm fine with chck-call and hoping win a lot of chips if you hit. However, since you have so many outs, if you're ready to gamble for your stack here, I like betting out or check raising and coming over the top of a raise.

On the turn, is tough a spot for you. Given the stack sizes and juicy board, I doubt he is going to bet the pot and fold to your all-in, so it seems a real possibility that your are behind and you'd need to improve on the river. That said, I wouldn't be real happy folding there or calling and folding to a river blank.

Interesting hand. Hopefully some others have some more insight on this, and if you were destined to go broke here.

 

[HarryCaray]

My thoughts:
(understanding with him holding AK, he is going anywhere, but he usually won't be that strong)

With his open raise from the button, I probably would have 3 bet pf instead of calling out of position with AT.

After the flop, since he has been so aggressive I'm fine with chck-call and hoping win a lot of chips if you hit. However, since you have so many outs, if you're ready to gamble for your stack here, I like betting out or check raising and coming over the top of a raise.

On the turn, is tough a spot for you. Given the stack sizes and juicy board, I doubt he is going to bet the pot and fold to your all-in, so it seems a real possibility that your are behind and you'd need to improve on the river. That said, I wouldn't be real happy folding there or calling and folding to a river blank.

Interesting hand. Hopefully some others have some more insight on this, and if you were destined to go broke here.

As the hand was playing out I kinda kicked myself for not taking control of it PF (but come to find out he would have 4 bet shoved me I'm sure anyway). Preflop I was almost positive I was ahead, and given all my outs on the flop I felt OK.

When he bet pot on the turn I was afraid I was behind but not convinced. Maybe should have folded then but my hand was pretty strong against an opponent who had been button-raising and could easily have A rag, KQ or a lower diamond draw. Also of course I'm looking at 12 outs if I'm wrong and he is ahead.

I suppose I'm happy with the way I played it...was just curious for some insight, thanks for responding.

I don't think I can get too nitty and fold here PF, which obviously would have been the best option having seen his cards and how it ran out. Maybe the play was 3-bet PF and fold to his 4-bet shove if he took that line? Pretty sure he's shoving here if I 3-bet and I doubt he would do that w/ less than 10 10+ or AJ+. Now that I think this over again this probably should have been my line.

Now if I 3-bet PF and he flatted me there is no getting away from the fireworks that would have ensued on the flop; I would have led out, he would have shoved, and I would have called...

 

[theDude24]

just a tough spot in all reality.

I would have 3-bet PF since it is a button raise. the only thing this can sometimes do, is if he 4 bets big, you can get away from the hand right there.

I probably raise the flop as well - but again, he isn't going anywhere.

on the turn, you *can* get away from it, but do you always want to? you have outs to the nuts, and could potentially even be ahead (hard to know without any history on the player)

in my opinion - it is a 6 max turbo SNG. in this spot, i think you go with it and you just kind of got coolered -especially with that flop

 

[awmllc2000]

With the limited info and not knowing what he held in this particular 6 max. I probably come over top pre to 210. If he calls I most likely check shove the flop, or been ok with a check,check. You really need to be fairly aggressive with this type of hand pre in your position. A raise here would have allowed him to respond in one of three ways and with the effective stacks he would have basically told you everything you needed to know.
A fold- never happening
A call- he's almost never doing that here with his hand in a 6 max
A shove/raise- he had to shove, he can't just raise with the effective stacks. A shove here is a obvious fold for you.

From your posts in my thread I see that you think on a deeper level than what most amateurs do. What if call a level three thinker... Anyways a common mistake that I see many amateurs make is they don't take advantage of effective stacks. This is a prime example of understanding effective stacks and basically making a player give you the information you need by responding with certain betting/raising sizing based on stack sizes. Now.. If you can peg a player as someone who is playing on the same understanding/level as you, you can respond with certain sizing that essentially provides them with all of the "fake" info and basically play/bluff a hand that you may not even have.

this may all make no sense, as I'm driving and typing on a phone. If this makes sense... Great. If not, ill try to clarify later.

 

[HarryCaray]

With the limited info and not knowing what he held in this particular 6 max. I probably come over top pre to 210. If he calls I most likely check shove the flop, or been ok with a check,check. You really need to be fairly aggressive with this type of hand pre in your position. A raise here would have allowed him to respond in one of three ways and with the effective stacks he would have basically told you everything you needed to know.
A fold- never happening
A call- he's almost never doing that here with his hand in a 6 max
A shove/raise- he had to shove, he can't just raise with the effective stacks. A shove here is a obvious fold for you.

From your posts in my thread I see that you think on a deeper level than what most amateurs do. What if call a level three thinker... Anyways a common mistake that I see many amateurs make is they don't take advantage of effective stacks. This is a prime example of understanding effective stacks and basically making a player give you the information you need by responding with certain betting/raising sizing based on stack sizes. Now.. If you can peg a player as someone who is playing on the same understanding/level as you, you can respond with certain sizing that essentially provides them with all of the "fake" info and basically play/bluff a hand that you may not even have.

this may all make no sense, as I'm driving and typing on a phone. If this makes sense... Great. If not, ill try to clarify later.

Totally makes sense, thanks for the response. This guy was not a level 3 thinker I don't think, he would have shoved hands that had me beat and folded or called hands in which I was ahead. I should have 3 bet PF and folded to his imminent shove.

By level 3 do you mean strategy vs. strategy randomness as opposed to range vs. range?

 

[awmllc2000]

Without spending a hour or two trying to coin exactly what I mean by level 3 thinker. It's basically a term myself and a few tournament grinders that I regularly talk strategy with loosely use to pinpoint players that completely understand all aspects the reasoning behind doing what they are doing as well as what is being represented by a opposing players actions. What is actually the desired outcome of their actions. It's kind of a tough discussion to have in text. These strategic talks are much more effective in person.

 

[awmllc2000]

Moreso speaking in terms of strategy.

 

[awmllc2000]

I've been very fortunate to spend many hundreds of hours either in hotel rooms or in the car traveling between tourneys with 2 guys I respect so highly in the tournament game. Over the last 4-5 years my game has improved tenfold vs. the first 10-12 years of competitively playing and I owe that all to the strategy conversation with these few guys.

 

[HarryCaray]

I've been very fortunate to spend many hundreds of hours either in hotel rooms or in the car traveling between tourneys with 2 guys I respect so highly in the tournament game. Over the last 4-5 years my game has improved tenfold vs. the first 10-12 years of competitively playing and I owe that all to the strategy conversation with these few guys.

That's awesome and I really appreciate you lending me some insight here. I would love to post hands that perplex me like this one and get your take.

Lesson learned here is a 3-bet would have given me all the info I need cause this guy is not tricky enough to 4-bet shove light, and I would have gotten off much cheaper.

 

[HarryCaray]

Just want to point out though that I didn't have this guy iso'ed a 3-bet is a little more dicey cause the BB could conceivably wake up with something and shove on me too...

 

[Porcupine]

Just want to point out though that I didn't have this guy iso'ed a 3-bet is a little more dicey cause the BB could conceivably wake up with something and shove on me too...

Not sure what your read was on the BB, but if he does shove and especially if button also shoves, then at least you get the info you need for an easy fold.

 

[HarryCaray]

Not sure what your read was on the BB, but if he does shove and especially if button also shoves, then at least you get the info you need for an easy fold.

True. I was just pointing out that with 2 others still in the pot I don't have the same fold equity I would have if I had the button isolated. Still the right play to use effective stacks to gain information by 3-betting, but I am NOT that strong here w/ A10s. PART of the reason I would 3-bet is also hoping for a PF fold (which we know wouldn't have come but I didn't know that at the time) so that I didn't have to play A 10 out of position. The probability I take down the pot uncontested obviously diminishes given a player left in the BB, even if I have high fold equity against him (cause of his short stack) AND high fold equity against the button (cause he's likely to be button raising light); the mere presence of 2 players reduces my collective fold equity.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[HarryCaray]

And if I 3-bet and BB shoves I'm mucking regardless of what button does, because given his stack size if he 4-bet shoves facing a raise and re-raise prior to his action (and given that he knows he had little to no fold equity in this situation) there are virtually no hands I am ahead of against the BB in this situation.

 

[Porcupine]

True. I was just pointing out that with 2 others still in the pot I don't have the same fold equity I would have if I had the button isolated. Still the right play to use effective stacks to gain information by 3-betting, but I am NOT that strong here w/ A10s. PART of the reason I would 3-bet is also hoping for a PF fold (which we know wouldn't have come but I didn't know that at the time) so that I didn't have to play A 10 out of position. The probability I take down the pot uncontested obviously diminishes given a player left in the BB, even if I have high fold equity against him (cause of his short stack) AND high fold equity against the button (cause he's likely to be button raising light); the mere presence of 2 players reduces my collective fold equity.

Hope that makes sense.

Makes perfect sense.

Prior to my other post I read had it more as you seeing it as a reason to not 3 bet. But, I think we're all on the same page that 3 betting is still correct, and the BB being live is just something that makes our play slightly less likely to go as smoothly as we'd prefer.

Glad we were able to use the excitement over AWM's deep run/thread to get some poker discussion started in the poker forum

 

[HarryCaray]

Makes perfect sense.

Prior to my other post I read had it more as you seeing it as a reason to not 3 bet. But, I think we're all on the same page that 3 betting is still correct, and the BB being live is just something that makes our play slightly less likely to go as smoothly as we'd prefer.

Glad we were able to use the excitement over AWM's deep run/thread to get some poker discussion started in the poker forum

Me too! :toast:

 

[PayWithPercocet]

This is just a tough spot period. The fact that you flatted pf doesn't do much for you in terms of building a range on your opponent, but I can see why you don't want to 3bet here with a medium strength hand; you want to take a flop and pick up a pair and/or a draw (which is exactly what happens here). I think with this flop and our 15 or so outs (14 actually w/ villain holding Kd) that we need to seriously be considering check-raising the flop to around ~480 or ~500. Tighter villains will release the hand there as we're repping QT or 99 (hands that make sense to flat with preflop and c/r flop) and top pair & kicker looks a lot less attractive when facing a big check raise. However, if villain doesn't fold 2 scenarios play out that are both more favorable than CRAI the turn.

1: villain calls c/r: we see turn card and have more control of the hand moving forward. You may even get away with going ck/ck on this turn because it helps villain and some average-poor players will check that card back to you after your big flop c/r. Or you're able to maybe make a little blocking bet to control pot size and see river hoping for diamond or queen.

2: villain shoves flop and you get to decide here whether or not you want to draw to 15 outs for your tournament, as his range gets pretty defined to AK+AA+QT+sets and 2pair. All of which we trail at this point. But we can muck the hand for ~600 early enough in the tournament to survive it at 15/30 blinds. Stack would still be ~900 and you can grind out a cash or better from there by tightening up.

Just my .02.

 

[ProPokerPlayer]

No need to try "out thinking" a guy in a 6 max SNG. 1 thing though is with the blinds so small is he really trying to steal the blinds? Not likely unless hes a complete tool. So raising PF to see where your at is out, you know where your at PF, he has a hand more than likely.
I would be tempted to fold or just call but rarely would i raise. If i did call and saw that flop i doubt im getting away from the hand. All my chips are going in after his CB and if i lose i just move on. 6 max only pays 2 spots and against any hand but a flopped straight your not that far behind with a lot of outs.